Proving to Clients You’re a Reliable Creative! EP #352

What does it really take to be a reliable creative?  ✅ 

We chat about why trust and reliability are so important in building great client relationships and how having a clear process can help you deliver every time. 

We bust the myth that being creative means putting your own vision ahead of your clients' needs, and share how systemizing your business can actually give you more space to be creative and keep your clients happy.  🙌🎨 

TVM: Den Lennie, Andy Johnston, Caleb Maxwell and Matt Smolen.

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05:12 The Importance of Trust and Reliability in Client Relationships

13:07 Collaboration and Client Satisfaction

21:16 Systemizing the Business for More Creativity and Client Satisfaction

Transcript

Topic one is how to be a reliable creative. How to be a reliable creative? Wow. Can we start with the definition of that?  Yeah, you want to look it up?  Reliable creative. Okay. Are we started? Yeah. It's actually not a bad place to start, is it? This is Fawkes is how we, agree on a topic and get going on a subject matter.

So you'll notice this week we are in physical person. Doesn't happen as often as we'd like because we're pretty displaced around the country. And to be honest, for those of you in Australia, Andy and I don't really like leaving Queensland. That is true. Because it's I mean it's winter and it's twenty-two degrees today.

And Canon and I like leaving our families for a little bit. Yes! We love going back there. We love going back there. Oh, that was really fun in the car, not twenty minutes from the airport. Both of you had a FaceTime from your wives with your screaming child. Yeah. Yeah, I gotta go. Bit of flack for leaving it with have fun with that comment.

Yeah. That wasn't that one. But we have a really close bond, me and my wife, seems like it. Yeah. Anyway, let's They certainly had a close bond. Yeah.  We've got three kids. Today's topic, now that we're together we're together because Why? Who wants to kick off why we're together?  In person.

Not just the good weather for you guys. It is actually because we do this kind of thing.  But the reason being we all run our own video production companies and we are here  doing exactly what we've been talking about. We are learning. We are developing, we are masterminding as a group for this whole week, actually, which is going to be heaps of fun, but we thought we're here, so why not take the opportunity?

So just before we move on to the topic today, for anyone who doesn't understand this concept of masterminding what is it? The definition from the original book Thinking Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill was when two people, two or more people get together with a common goal.  each other. 

What's your impression? What's your interpretation of a mastermind? It's one of those things where we get together as a collective with the sole purpose of learning and helping each other develop. In these particular events, it's often masterminding what's the biggest barrier or problem we're currently facing and how do we create.

Action for the next 90 days or something. But so often it's the conversation around those masterminds that happen. It's, you get surrounded by other business owners, other peers that understand your plights and what you're going through. It's the real power of just community around that and having those conversations really candidly where you can be like, this is what I'm dealing with.

What are you going through and how can we help each other get through it? Yeah, absolutely. I think to add onto that, the.  I think a really powerful thing of taking time out in your business to spend two, or three days.  Deep diving and solving some of the key problems that you don't really get to But then also next to that is talking to others who may have already solved that in their business And then you get insight from them and what that does is you go Oh, this is actually achievable and it gives you perspective on your big problems and all of a sudden those problems aren't as big And then you walk away going.

Okay, I can actually do this. Yeah, if I can throw in one more is Sometimes you don't actually know what the problem is You just know that there's an issue or you're feeling the pain of it, but you can't nail it down. Why is this happening? Why am I feeling the way I'm feeling? And to be in a room with a whole bunch of other people that have on this practically the same journey as you can have that outside perspective and ask some really key and personal questions because we have built an environment of trust and a culture of Trust and respect, we can drill into those pretty vulnerable kinds of areas and just go, is it this, is this is what I'm observing and, yeah, the problem comes to the surface and you're like, Oh my goodness.

Yeah, now I know now at least I've got a place to start. And then, absolutely. I think for me. I don't think I would be where I am today if it wasn't for the masterminds. I remember the last mastermind we had 12 months ago. Holy crap.  You're going to be grilling from memory. Have you have you done much in the last year? 

I've done a bit, yeah. Yeah. 2, 3x. Yeah. In 3x's? Are you okay?  Yeah.  But literally that's 12 months and man. It's actually crazy. I actually feel like it was longer, but I was like.  Looking at everything, I was like, oh shit, it's only been 12 months. It's actually 11 months, because the mastermind's earlier this year.

Yeah, it was July last year. Because Tim wants to go to Europe, and Tim is the longest-serving member, so he gets to dictate when the mastermind's happened. Oh, I love that.  And then has to bail early on Thursday.  Yay, calling the shots. You're podcast now, Tim. Yeah, I know, right? There was a mention of the word trust there.

Yeah. Which kind of leans beautifully, I think you'll agree, into today's topic, which is clients being able to trust creatives.  Because oftentimes, it's been my experience that a lot of corporate clients,  they don't want too creative. Now, you might talk differently to this, but there's a, there's definitely a way to approach a client and be reliable.

Because I think that whenever we go and have a conversation with a corporate client, in the back of their head, they have got a story about someone, or they have experience of someone not being reliable, not sending a quote when they said they would not be able to deliver the edit on time. And so I wanted to explore that concept because particularly with you, Matt, your business is built on crazy creative ideas.

But I'm guessing.  There's still a way to approach that in terms of a client feeling safe handing over the thick end of six figures to a bunch of crazy guys who are going to go make a really cool film. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think it's the key to it is process and having the client know what the process is and trusting you to facilitate that process.

So yeah we do that. Bright ourselves and doing creative ideas and pushing the boundary of not just the simple talking head and overlay kind of video. It's like, how do we push the brief? How do we challenge this in a really creative way? And so to build that trust and that, that reliability, you've got to prove that you can deliver on that and do what you say you're going to do.

So to your point, it's sending a quote when you say you're going to send it, it's getting back to them with treatments and ideas and concepts, but knowing that. Creativity as a concept can be pretty intimidating for corporate clients. So handholding and really supporting them through that process. We've got clients that we've worked with for 10, 12 plus years now, and we get phone calls going, Hey, we've got this job that needs some creativity.

Come in and talk to us. And we just get, everything gets thrown back at us. What do you want to do? How can we do this? Here's our budget. Let's go. And we write our own concept and idea. You only get to that point by delivering on what you're doing.  Which ultimately isn't necessarily a video.

It's a communications vehicle. It might be to talk to an external audience or it might be to talk to their internal teams or something, but it needs to do what you say it's going to do, whether it's flashy and exciting or straightforward and simple. And you only build that trust if it does that.

So it doesn't matter what the idea is, if it doesn't achieve what they want and you can repeat that every time they get you in for a job. Then they'll never come back to you. I think that's the fear, right? Is that, and a lot of corporate clients have had bad experiences where they've dealt with a creative where they've got a purpose and an outcome that they need to achieve.

They've come to a creative and the creative does either doesn't get it or doesn't care about their outcome. They just want to be creative. They just want to do the cool thing. And that builds this reputation amongst creatives that they don't understand business marketing stuff but they just want to be overly creative all the time and that they'll be too precious on their own ideas.

And all this kind of thing builds this story up of poor old videographers. And sometimes they just, through no. intentional fault of their own, they are being unreliable and unruly, right? How, like from our experience can we, how do you become reliable? If you're a little bit like, you putting everything out there and you're going I just want to do good work. 

And you find yourself throwing good ideas out there, but leaving a little bit to be desired on the fulfillment side. Like how does someone transition from that Yeah, superstar reliable creative right here. Cause it's a really great question. I'd love to hear from Andy first, because I think like weirdly, and we talk a lot about niching here.

Our niche is that creativity. And so that's all I know. Whereas I think coming from somebody that's got a really repeatable, Product or niche inside an industry you are reliable because you do that same thing for other people all the time, right? Yeah, so I think you nailed it on the head map when you said it's process So it's like creativity needs structure in order for creativity to thrive.

So the way that we Instill trust into our clients when they approach us to create a brand story video is literally our pre production process. Like I show them our pre-production process and it's an 8-stage process. Stage 1 is we conduct a 90-minute interview. Stage 2 is we extract your answers and we create pillars.

Stage three is we take those pillars and we create story principles. Stage four is we then create a story wheel. Then we'll create two versions of that. Then we'll create a radio edit. Then from the radio edit we'll create a storyboard.  And I show them that in three minutes. I go, this is our creative process.

And that process is exactly how we made this brand story, and this brand story.  See you next. And they're like, These guys know what they're talking about.  And that's that's that's the name of the game. Yep. So it is yeah, it's 100 processes so it's if you can create a creative process that works and it is So the fear of using a process is that you create too many cookie cutter template kind of stories, right?

But if you break down story, a lot of stories are the same at their core, right? So there's a protagonist, there's an obstacle. And the bigger the obstacle, the higher the stakes, the higher the stakes, the more engaging the journey. So that's, that can be applied across boards, so if you can show that, yeah, all stories fundamentally are the same, but the way that we paint the story, the different scenes and the different environments, that's what's different.

And that's what makes it uniquely yours, they feel more comfortable, diving into that story with you. Yeah.  It makes it easy for you as a creative in our case for me as a producer, it makes it easy for me to be like, okay, client comes in, put them in through the process. We know that it's going to work because there's a proven process there.

Having said that, that process didn't happen overnight. It was a small process and then we, it sucked for a bit and then got a little bit better and then it got too complicated because we're trying to be too fancy. So we had to dumb it down a bit.  To now where it's like it's at a sweet spot. Yeah, it's at a sweet spot But we're still precious with it in the sense that I'm happy to add to it if I see that it's effective, right?

So I think it's like the thinking if the thinking can be in order to be creative How can we create a process to enhance creativity? I think when you strike that balance, I think you can create  Creativity on demand. I love that. And that's, that really feeds nice into the way we approach anything where we're dealing with all sorts of different clients, large, small, whatever, that they in their world are very much a square hole.

And you might have a creative idea. That's the, the circle. Okay. And you can't quite fit it through that hole, that's going to solve their problem and you've got all of the idea behind it. How do you then communicate to them to be. Flexible enough to open to that creative idea, right?

So then your process through demonstrating that creativity is going, here's a bunch of concepts. I'm going to talk you through it with mood boards or with visual references or examples of other work. And really like you're potentially talking to people that have never done anything creative in their lives.

To be pretty blunt and you're producing a whole bunch of really crazy out there ideas to them that you need to find a middle ground to get them on board and on the same page. And so without a process of doing that and delivering that and softening it so they can come on board and join you on that and then the collaboration is where that journey continues and you become, ideally clients for life and it's, that's the way you do it.

And I think the other thing it does is like in, in the business world. It makes people feel safe. Yeah, nobody's gonna drop Loads of money to somebody who's we'll just work it out as we go, They're gonna be like, yeah, cool. So this is our first phase in pre-production.

This is our second phase We don't have all the boxes ticked here. But the whole idea of phase one is to create that Extract the answers to then facilitate phase two and phase three. So if you say that to them, they're like, okay, cool. That I feel like you guys have got a plan. Yeah. There's something they can anchor their trust in, right?

Yeah. It's like you were saying you, you're not gonna feel real good as a client if You're interacting with someone and they're like, I've just got this, I've got this internal process that I go through and it's, it's here and it's there and vibe,  creativity hits, I'll be here waiting and it doesn't matter if you show them really good videos that you've made before they're looking at you going you're just a wild storm is it going to work this time?

I don't know. There's this little Pandora's box that is you it's just unpredictable, but also someone recently Commented to me. They were asked they were talking about you Andy and like the growth they've observed this year  And they were like, you know His videos aren't like, amazing  . And I'm like, who wasn't man, who wasn't 

I'll tell you his name was. But I had the conversation. I said, no, I agree. I said, but you're missing the point.  Andy's not making videos that he thinks he's gonna put in film festivals. . He's making videos that the client pays tens of thousands of dollars for, 'cause it helps them sell more of their houses. 

And he's not attached to how created videos. The videos look nice. They look great, but there, but this person was more of a very creative person and is not doing very well commercially  because they feel like they should be paid a lot of money for not much work and no one's hiring them just now.

And I think that He was confused  So I sat him straight mate  Yeah, look it's but the serious point is that a lot of creatives miss that It's not about what you're producing that's gonna look good on your showreel. It's about are you facilitating a Solution for someone yeah That they are happy to pay a lot of money for.

Yeah, that's right. The people aren't coming to you because you're the next whiz-bang, future Hollywood director that's gonna, they're gonna, tell their mates, Oh, Matt Smolen directed my corporate video the other day. You'd be surprised. You'd be surprised.  Good enough for Kylie.

That's true. That's right. Call me Kylie.  But they're coming to you because they've got a solution that they're looking for. They've got an outcome they're looking for. Video is just the obstacle, right? You use a Danism. Video is the obstacle that they need to go through to get the outcome that they're looking to achieve.

I think though, and this is just like me just taking a shot here, but I think they want to be the person. Like you just said they're not the person like, they're not the big Hollywood director guy that, you know, but I think they want to be that. So it's there's an identity crisis that's happening and that is the actual real problem because they're like this video that I do, this is what's going to take me to the top in the film game and gonna, live this fancy life that they've envisioned.

It's actually not true. And that's the quicker you can clear the kind of demystify that fog, I think the quicker you'll realize that, oh, okay.  It's actually not that hard, you can actually win and get some runs on the board without having to become the next big shot. Yeah. But it's like you mentioned about significance and identity.

Yep. There's a lot of significance attached to being a director within maybe the people you grew up with in film school. And you can often tell.  When people have a lot of those, I don't know, they could have they're like Caesar crests that they've got, like when you enter a film. The laurels, yeah.

When you film, when you enter a film festival, it seems like you just get killed.  website and some people have got like thousands of them. And and like that's a really significant thing for the film festival circuit that most clients couldn't give a fuck because it's like, what's that? Like it's like putting a music video on your website when you make corporate videos for builders.

It's not relevant. And I think it's, there's an attachment to the significance of corporate videos. I'm really, I see myself as a creative filmmaker and the corporate's kind of a little bit beneath me. Rather than, Hey, The creativity comes, and Pat said this, Pat said he used to think the creativity was being in the edit, but now he realizes building a team creating a business, and helping clients solve problems is where the creativity comes in.

Yeah. The problem there is they're making it about themselves. Yeah. It's like business 101 is about solving other people's problems. Yeah. Yeah. That's 101. Take zoom out a video production. That's the whole name of the game.  So every successful company will be built off solving problems. So it's if you come into business with the core incentive that it's it's going to propel me forward and I have to be the main event, you're going to struggle.

Cause it's like exactly what you said. I look at the brand stories that we create and I swallow that pill. I understand. I look at those videos and I can be, I can look at the videos and be like, We can make those 10 times better, but I can, I have to be content with us just releasing it as it is, because it meets the need, it does, it's, it has a function, it has a purpose, we're playing a bigger game here. 

100%, I'm not trying to enter those videos into the, into film festivals, because it's not about me. So it's as these creatives, if they can step out of, it's about me, it's about the awards I've won etc.  If they can step out of that, they will experience a whole different journey in business.

I think to come back and bring all of this back into that, how do you become the reliable or the trusted creative, right? It's, involves a level of a relationship. with a client, with the people you work with and things like that. And I think that there is, I've never seen a situation go worse when other people are brought up and, encouraged to be part of something.

Working with a client that wants to do something creative, but might feel very foreign early on that collaboration is key to. It continuing because if they don't have a good experience and feel good through it or feel a part of it, it's just going to be a resistance to going forward. So  anytime like you're on set with a client doing something and you've gotten the job and you've pushed the envelope a little bit, you're doing something a bit more creative, involve them, get them to call action, get them to call.

That's a wrap or use the clapperboard like all of a sudden that just those little things that feel like it's all of a sudden the one exciting day of the week. At work, and I'm not behind my desk in teams and zoom meetings and stuff, they're then part of that creativity and you've chosen to include them  all the way through the process.

If they feel included and understood, they will just go, yes, this is the best experience as long as it delivers on what you're saying it's going to deliver and they'll just keep coming back because that classic saying people remember what you do, not what you say. People don't remember what you say.

Nope. Anyway, you get it.  Don't remember what I say.  People remember how you made them feel. It's exactly it, right? And if they feel really supported, understood, and then their solutions are delivered every single time, it's a no-brainer that they'll trust you to do it again and again. Yep. Agreed. Which comes from confidence, right?

Yeah. None of us were born confident going into client relationships and being willing to share a process because we'd spent the time creating a process. Because all of that stuff, I actually love making processes. It's just, it must be a bit weird, but I love certainty.

It's one of my highest values. So certainty comes from knowing exactly what's going on. So if I've got steps and checkboxes, I'm I take the thing out of my head like we're doing this event this week and I've got a bunch of things I've just taken off one by one and each time I take something off I'm like I've got less to think about now. 

So what advice do you have for starting that? Yeah. Systems process thinking, because I know when I first started on my systems journey, I was like, oh my God, I'm going to make all these systems and shoot me now, but then I got to know Dave Jennings at Systemology and he showed me a process for the critical client flow, and that's the one I adopted and ended up, milking my assistant and built all the systems.

I just had to create them. And that by creating that was mostly just I'll record a Loom video  talking through what I'm doing. And I think a lot of that can feel a bit weird, right? But I actually used to have this little sticker on my computer that said, If you're doing this more than once, record it on Loom and create a system.

And I've just got hundreds of videos in Loom.  And then my team just turned them into really cool-looking systems. That's the place to start, right? It's extraction. And that's the step in the systemology process that you're talking about there to start with. It's, it is and we got you to systemize our whole business, right?

And the start of it, even you can do this, even if you're on your own, the start is, you do have some creative genius, right? You do have a way that you see the world that no one else does. So the first step is just about capturing that. How do you do what you do and put it out of your head so that you can structure language around it, so that you can communicate that to a client so that they can feel trusted and safe with you because you've got a process.

And the first step is just getting it out of your head. Go through the whole way you approach video production. The way you approach creating a video. And you might end up like Andy and look at it and go, Look, we've gone a bit too far here. We need to put our client goggles on and go, Oh, that looks ugly.

Or that looks confusing. Or that looks, oh, like it's overwhelming. So you bring it back a little bit. But I think the first step. That's what we did was just how do I like doing things, how do I how do I operate best in the creative process get that out of my head so that then it's down on paper so that then a client can follow that as a process and feel like we're safe hands.

I'd go one slight step back from that even just to before even taking and extracting things and systemizing it is find a filter to put every action you do through and make that the nonnegotiable. So it might be like, make sure that the client. Is on board and comfortable with whatever this step is. So if you are constantly pitching ideas and whatever, it's don't just throw stuff out there and move on.

Go cool. We're going to do the next thing. It's like the softening, the pillow underneath that pitch thing. And that every single action that goes through that will start creating some consistency in that process. Then you can take that next step and go, all right, how do you build out structure around this?

So somebody else could come in and do it and scale it from there. So to even just get simplified is just give one little filter that you put every decision through. And every action goes through it, whether it's, a repeat client or a new client to make sure that thing retains consistency throughout.

What's what's an example of one of those filters to bring the concept? I'll give you one we use all the time. It's a challenge of the brief every single time. So it might be a case of we get this thing, Hey, we want to capture some vox pops and some overlay at this event. And then we go, cool. What is a new way of doing this?

Can we have a fake reporter go out there and interview people? Can we, I don't know, set up like a little confessional booth and then they tell secrets. It's like these ideas might get thrown out there and then be really wrong. And you just come back to the same thing. But you've then, you've explored the neighborhood a little bit.

You've seen what's happening. And only through doing that and just pushing that out there and seeing what resonates will a client then go, Oh, that's a really interesting idea. Oh, you thought about this really differently. And that presents a new opportunity for something down the line. We use it all the time and it's if you put every decision through that, you come up with some really interesting stuff.

So you can take that home. Upframe explore the neighborhood reminds me of a mastermind we had probably two years ago where you introduced that notion of exploring the neighborhood. And I think A number of businesses started taking that on. And that's just a little side to why we get together twice a year physically and do that.

But I was gonna just mention there that one of the things that credit Dave Jennings Systemology, who wrote the book and trained me and all that kind of stuff the key with systems is not to apply. I've gotta write the ideal way of doing something. The key with systemizing your business.

is to document exactly what you're doing now as a baseline. Because in that process,  there might be things that are not right, or that could be done better. But once it's written down, it's much easier to edit. Yep. And improve. . And systems are, for me, something that becomes a kind of kaizen function.

They're continually being improved by the people that are using them. Yeah. That's a barrier. That's a good key though, because that's a barrier to systemizing is when someone gets into the work of creating a system, they go, oh, I can't finish this because I've got some improvements that I need to make in the way we do things before I document it.

Yeah.  We're going to change from Asana to ClickUp, so we need to do that first. Yeah, we're not going to systemize yet, because there are things that are going to change. But, I love what you say, it's so much easier to edit once you've got it down. To wrap it up Andy, what's your last tip for anybody starting to, how do you be reliable?

I was actually going to ask you guys. I'll answer your question with a question. Systems and processes is something that I sucked at, and I still think I lack in that department. It's something that I've continued to struggle with. Only recently, now having to scale a team, the problem is in my face. So I can feel the bear chasing me down.

So I'm like, we have to systemize everything. But iSales, iCRM, when a lead comes through to the follow-ups, to the nurture sequences, everything now is documented.  But it took me to get to a place where I was, it was painful to not have systems. So I don't know, I'll ask you guys like for the, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

I'm sure like there are people like Den who love systems and processes, but there are other people and probably especially creatives who are like,  do not like systems. What's your guys advice or tips or any practical advice you can give to somebody to lean into systems that actually might. Change your perspective on it.

I would say my biggest one is that I think I've said it before, I might have even said it on this podcast, but the brain's a great idea, a place to have an idea, and it's a terrible place to store an idea, right? So the, and the way I felt as a creative is that I had too much stored in here. It was all full of the way we do things or what has to happen next or whatever that actually systemizing what.

With the way I approach things and laying it out in front of me got it out of my head And it made me feel like I had more space to be creative Because I had these nice little boundaries like little paddocks to play in or where I have a system of how we do pre-production and I could Just follow my own system, rather than trying to remember and develop the process every single time and think, oh, is this the right process for this project?

Is this what should I be doing it differently? You get stuck on little roundabouts, at least I did get stuck on a roundabout in my head, just going round and round in circles. And that's not being very creative at all. That is limiting. That felt limiting to my creativity.

So putting it out on paper was a really freeing experience. So what I hear there is you've discovered the why. To have processes for yourself, which is. To have more creativity, which is important to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent like I wanted to set myself up to succeed let alone all of the other classic amazing reasons to systemize in terms of You know being able to onboard team members and replicate yourself and the way you do things like there's endless Benefits to systemizing for growing a business.

It's required But for me it was I needed to You Get some things out of my head. I needed to have a process, even though I designed it, it was in my head. It made it easier for me to follow. Yeah.  I think the idea of the resistance to systems can often feel like you're then creating a really narrow pathway to make something.

And in some ways it's true because it avoids you steering off and going into places that you don't need to. But what it does is it's. It creates this a pathway that anybody can follow so you can make that as creative or as, as restrictive as you want. So I don't think systems as a concept need to be like this just hems in our creativity and we're never doing anything interesting again.

It's no, it's giving everybody that gets involved in that a guideline to be as creative as you want to be. And to contribute, right? And to contribute, absolutely. And scale it. You could have one person follow those systems like yourself when you start, or you have 20 people following it. And it means that your entire team.

Lives that same way of operating, which means it's reliable to the client. It's consistent. I think we've solved the episode. I think just to finish up with is the take, take the system for getting paid.  A lot of creatives don't know how to ask for the money.  And so upfront they're like, yeah, cool. I'm available.

I can do it. Yeah. Cool. We'll get started. And then the back of their head, they're like we haven't figured out the money or the payment yet. We haven't invoiced. And then. They're on the shoot and they're like, Hey, listen, any chance we can get paid? And they're like we didn't discuss that.

And then what happens is if you don't have a system for the pre-production process involving, Hey, I just want to talk about your payment terms, our payment terms, anything we need to know. We're a small business. We're nimble, but we're not a bank. And if we have multiple productions going on, if we're thinking about money and being paid, we're not putting our efforts into creativity.

And we want to be giving you the best of us in that creativity. So can we just iron this out now? When you have a process for that, and you guys have got the great process, even when you've done work for me, it's it doesn't matter who it is. Hey, here's the onboarding call. And here's the invoice. And as soon as that invoice is paid, we'll get started every single time.

That's a system that then allows you to put all of your effort into creation.  So for me, systems absolutely set you free. 

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