Clients Ghosting? 👻 Ghost-Proof Your Sales Strategy! EP #354

Boo! 

Have you ever had a client on the hook and then poof! Gone...👻  

Today, the Mentors dive into the challenges of ghosting in business, especially in client relationships and sales. They share personal stories of being ghosted and explore strategies to combat this issue, emphasizing the importance of follow-ups and nurturing leads.

This episode also highlights the role of CRMs in managing client interactions and the necessity of systemization in business operations. Don't miss these valuable insights on keeping your clients engaged and your sales pipeline strong!

TVM: Den Lennie, Andy Johnston, Caleb Maxwell and Matt Smolen.

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00:00 Introduction to Ghosting in Business

06:31 Dealing with Ghosting and Polarizing Communication

12:40 Using Humour to Elicit a Response

23:54 The Importance of CRMs and Strong Systems

Transcript

Okay, I'm going to say one word. Ghosting. Who wants to start? I have just so many stories of ghosting, and it's one of those things that like, it's all in the follow up and the persistence, right? And I think my favorite, or maybe the most notorious ghosting story for me was a connection that I made. They had a video production provider for a few years and they were just exploring other relationships, right?

And I met with a bunch of them at their office and it went extremely well. We had a whole bunch of examples we showed that lined up really well. It was just like the most perfect fit. Then serendipitously in the entire, universe and energetic, I bumped into this person at an airport with my family, like two, three weeks later, we were going to the Queensland for my sister's wedding.

And anyway, bump into this like amazing. Wow. Can't wait to hear from me. And then heard nothing. And it's like the worst feeling. Cause I was like, this is meant to be, it's going to be amazing. And it's like the frustration when you put yourself out there, you put your best foot forward and then they just disappear on you making the decision to, to finally step away from that arrangement or conversation.

Yeah. Is incredibly hard. And I think one of the challenges for us when we're at a level where, you know, where this, the providers of business and fuel for the companies we're running and we're maybe less on the tools and we're much more sales and business development focused. Is knowing when to pursue and keep pursuing and then knowing when to say, you know what, this is diminishing returns, and cut that tie there.

So that's the one, my team joke about all the time that this person still is rent-free in my head and I often bring them up like a scorned,  it's the scars we all wear, right?  Oh, that's crazy. I reckon I've got it.  I reckon most of the ghosting that has happened to me has been clients, actual clients, that we're like part way through a project or we're at the end.

I reckon the craziest one was it was a 40K project and we we got through all the shoot multiple shoot days.  They went really well. And we cut it all together, looks great, it's like a lot of content, like a, it's a, like a lot of content, learning content,  I can't remember, five hours or something like that and then sent it,  no feedback,  at all fully paid and then, I got,  what do you do with that?

And I got back in touch, I eventually got on the phone and she was like, Oh, it feels so bad about this it's not doing anything unfortunate for me. What are you doing? And it has been, no joke, this is still continuing. It has been over a year and we have still not received any feedback.

Other than verbally verbal check-ins every six months saying, yeah, no, it's really good. And I'm going to get there. I'm going to get onto this feedback thing.  I've got no words. Yep.  That was wild.  And you had any experience with being ghosted in a professional sense? Ha. He's unghostable, our Andy.

He's too charismatic.  No, it's funny. I actually have, I was ghosted this week. I'm currently dealing with a prospect who's in the process of ghosting me now. And so when I like  to put ghosting into business terms, I would classify getting ghosted as being in the gray area. So like my rule of thumb is get everybody out of the gray area.

We don't want anybody in the gray area. I had a client, we went through the two, two-step sales call process. It was a 40-grand deal. Everything sounded good, and then they said we'll make a decision by Monday. Two weeks went by, follow-up, no answer. I, what I tend to do, my strategy is be as polarizing as possible so they can't avoid you.

So I literally said to them in my email, I said is this still a priority for you guys, or have we officially been ghosted? And, within two hours I got a response to that. And yeah but the, like the topic of ghosting is actually a big deal. It's a big deal for me because it can really hinder the, a business owner's mindset when it comes to sales and growth.

If you've got a lot of people who you're currently being ghosted by, and it can slow down your activity to go and hunt down more sales. So if I ever catch myself and I'm in a position where I've got three or four deals that are pending, not really hearing back from him, but I'm like in anticipation mode. 

It's very easy to slip into the mindset of, Oh they'll eventually come on board and the sales will be there and then we're all good.  So when you're in that anticipation mode, you're no longer then going out and getting more sales. So you're putting a lot of pressure on that person actually taking you on board.

But the longer you're being ghosted, and the longer they're in the grey area, the less likely they actually are to actually go ahead. And people ghost you for various reasons. Some reasons are valid, and other reasons are, they just, you're no longer a priority, they don't want it anymore, and they just Don't have it within them to get in touch with you. 

But yeah, my rule of thumb is no, I've got a literally in our CRM gray area, and like the goal is get everybody out of the gray area, whatever it takes.  Yeah. So it's I think you speak really well to that, Andy. And I think the thing I love about this topic is it's, you can sit there and pine for the lost opportunities, but I think if you build a really strong system around followups and nurturing those gray areas or those kinds of cold or early stage leads the followup becomes, it just gets rid of all of that pressure on the ghosting side of it.

So I know for us, like we, we deal with a lot of output as far as like outreach and lead gen stuff. Yeah. And my job is just managing the nurture of all of those leads at whatever stage they're at. So it's systemized to a point where I now don't even have to think about, I haven't heard from Andy for a couple of weeks.

It's literally in our product management A project management system to say Hey, contact Andy, if it's been a week since we last spoke and there's Bang Man a couple of hours every day and all of those follow ups and chasing ups are happening with notes of what's happened and it can, you can put this in a CRM, you can do it in project management system, whatever it is, but systemizing it.

So you just take all of the grunt work out of that to know that your follow-up is already It's going to be intentional and planned out with a point to say, you know what,  if you just goes to me all if this is no longer a priority, I'm going to wipe this off our house slate just to go I'm done with this.

No more energy, but also gives you that last Hail Mary passive. If they go no, no way. We still want to work with you. You've called them out on the nonsense that they're putting forward to you anyway. Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely that, that sense of that moving on email, isn't it?

It's Are you no longer interested? Or my favorite one is, I haven't heard back from you about X project.  So I'm going to assume you've gone in a different direction. If I can ever be of any help, please reach out in the future. That one almost always gets a response. But on the topic of ghosting, I've currently got three active ghosting conversations on the go, and I've actually gamified it. 

Because  there's one chap who we had a 90 minute conversation with call on a discovery call and during that call, he said, Oh my goodness, your ad spoke to me. The video spoke to me. Everything about that conversation spoke to me. I'm having all these problems. I'm at 250. I want to get to 500.  Took him through the whole discovery call process.

And we explore all the specific things that he was having challenges with. And I said, yeah.  Look, if you're serious and you're committed, we can solve all of these challenges. And there's a real degree of chaos in your business, but you need systems and structure and accountability. Yeah, cool. So like the end of the call, he said, yeah, cool.

I'm just gonna go and look at my cash flow. I'll come back to you tomorrow. And that was  55 days ago. And I have his number and I've followed up with him. I don't know how many times, but there's got to be, let's have a look here.  A lot of messages, there's got to be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 messages. 

And every now and again, he's yeah, brother, sorry. I've got really slammed, got a job next week. And the interesting thing about this is that it is really easy to take it personally and go, we had a 90-minute conversation. We spoke very openly and frankly about the problems you're experiencing. 

If it's a no. That's completely fine,  but they just can't bring themselves to say no. And I think it's because if they say no, they're actually saying no to a bigger decision, which is that they're not serious about growing. They're not serious about evolving. And yesterday I went a stage further. I thought how can I wrap this conversation off?

So I recorded the loom video,  which was. Hey, name. I was sitting on my veranda, stroking the dog. I said, look,  it's now been about 54 days since we spoke and you said that the only thing stopping you getting over the line here was cash flow. I'm starting to think that you're just ghosting me now. And that's cool.

If you just came on the call for free advice, that's totally fine. But I need a yes or I need a no, because I'm not going to stop until I get a yes or a no. Because I believe. I have a moral obligation to help you solve this problem.  Now that's very unique to the coaching space. They've got a couple of others just now, which are ticking along.

And it's the same thing, but I have a friend who's also in this space and he says he just keeps sending them testimonials day after day with a link to buy.  Because you go back to marketing first principles, the guy called Dan Kennedy, who's a very accomplished direct response marketer from 20, 30 years ago, and he said, you, and his terms, you keep emailing people till they buy, die or unsubscribe. 

Now I realized in the video production world, that probably isn't quite as valuable. However, I do think a lot of first principles remain true today. There's platforms change. And if someone has indicated they want to buy from you and then they don't,  I think maybe culturally in Australia, there's definitely a sense of People don't want to say no to your face.

So they'll go yeah. Later. But so I guess then the next point to lead on from this is how do you then systemize that that next phase, if they're still in the gray area, do you guys just put them into a different nurture sequence? How do you get them out of the gray area?

And I love your point about polarizing Andy, cause it's really important. Yeah, I love that too. We do a similar thing, but we use a ninja cat. I, this'll only be relevant on video. Can I show the Ninja Cat?  I reckon that would be I'm not sure. I reckon I can. Give it a crack. Yeah, go on.

Here it is. This is the email. I love this already. And it's so good. I love it. It's so good.  It always gets a really clear response, right? So this is, the first line is no, no anything. It's are you in trouble? Hey, first name. I'm sure you got lots to do, whatever. Don't want to be a pest.

But I need a quick response. Let me know if A, you're swamped. Oh, I should leave you alone.  B. You're unsure of the next steps and need time to think. Or C. You're being held captive by a ninja kitten and need me to send help.  If it's the last one, please don't delay your response. We're experts in hostage negotiation as well.

Oh, that's brilliant. I'll tell you what, this ninja cat has never failed me. It's got a hundred percent success rate. I've never sent that email and not got a response. never seen. That's crazy because it just it cuts through, right?  It cut, it cuts through the it with humor cuts through the feel bad.

Oh, maybe they're upset with me now because I haven't gotten back to them. That's all probably common feelings, but as soon as I said that, they're just like, Oh, I love this guy even more now. You do realize that in sharing this with the world. That's now going to stop being effective.

You're going to have to come up with another crazy animal. I I throw it out to, I throw the challenge out to everyone. Every video producer listening to this, if you implement this, I still think it has power. I reckon we would have to have a listener base of millions for that to stop working. 

But anyway, that's like my strategy. It's the polarizing thing, right? With some humor thrown in there. And then I just throw them on the monthly email list. Like you said, Den, it's too valuable not to nurture, to continue nurturing leads that almost bought from you because they're the warmest ones you've got, like other than ones that did purchase, the ones that almost got there, they are the warmest. 

Much warmer than  cold ones.  We we often do the sort of follow up side of things. Like I said, we put it into our project management system. So it's all there and you don't have to think about it. And one of the most effective tips I got was to. Change the day of the week that you respond to them.

So you either alternate every six days or eight days. If you looking to do like a weekly schedule, so you're not constantly reaching out on a Monday. Monday might be their big meeting day and they just don't have time and it drops to the bottom of their to do list. So if you're following up on a Monday, then a Tuesday, then a Wednesday, then a Thursday, then Friday, each consecutive week, you just then, yeah, your hit rate might be better because you're hitting them on different parts of the week and schedules and things like that.

And the other key to that too is just changing it up, like Ninja Cats might work really well via email, but they might not be email people, they might be phone call people, they might be a text message, whatever, so Call them, email them, don't be afraid to jump on the phone and follow up because, ultimately if there was some intention there, you following up to get to an answer is not going to hurt that relationship.

They might just be like, Hey, look, yep, sorry. Now it's a no. And then you've all got an answer and you can move on. They're never going to be like, stop calling me to get an answer to this thing that we'd already discussed unless they're completely unreasonable individuals. So  alternate your days, call them, email, change up the method of reaching them to really supercharge the follow up as well.  Yeah. For me, it's a really  interesting topic, right? Because ghosting, if you go a level lower or a level deeper, and you think of the psychology that's at play here, it's actually about framing and positioning.  Because the sales psychology in sales, you always want to hold the frame.

That's the key to negotiations. You want to own the frame. And when you give a prospect the power.  To like the powers in their hand to either ghost you or not, then you're, you no longer own the frame. They hold the frame. So if you take a step further back, it's like, I started trying to work out why are we getting ghosted?

And I actually worked out it's a sales process. Because we're leaving it too open. So our sales process is the pre, the triage calls, the pre-qualifying call, the sales call, and if at that point they aren't ready to purchase, they say, I will get back to you. I say to them, great, let's schedule in next Monday at 10.

30 for you to make a decision.  And if at 10. 30, we get to it next week, and they don't rock up, I instantly go into a nurture sequence, very quickly become polarizing, and I want them out of that grey area. You lose I remember you said then, early on, to continue the follow-up, I think it's like the follow-up, it's like the twelfth section like the twelfth follow-up email, usually everybody else has given up at that point. 

But I've also learned that people move towards what's moving away from them, as well. There's sometimes where I've done it where I've said, Cool you obviously don't want it, see ya later. And all of a sudden they come chasing you. And it just accelerates the inevitable result. You know what I mean?

They either, they will or will not get with you. And the inevitable is inevitable. The question I have for myself is, how can I get to that inevitable result? Sooner rather than later. And the key is  owning that entire sales process. So there's no doors of I'll think about it. It's cool.

I'll give you a timeframe of 30 minutes on a sales call to think about it, and I'll be there. And at the end of that, if you want to keep thinking about it, I'll also get up another time for you to think about it with me.  Because the moment people get off a sales call,  people are always trying to find reasons not to engage with you.

That, that's, they're trying to, everybody will go into a lower version of themselves if it involves discomfort. So they'll come out and they'll find evidence in their life to be like Maybe I don't need to do this, and maybe we're better off just doing what we're doing now, and, okay, yeah we're doing them a disservice by leaving them in that space.

Yeah, it's interesting. I love that, Andy. It's interesting. It is so good. And you're spot on. Cause I remember myself and what we implemented along the sales kind of journey at the start. And this'll, resonate with nearly everyone listening. I'll say is that you send a quote and you're like, Hope for the best, you don't want to put any pressure on, like you just want to be the, you don't want to be the sales guy, like I'm creative, I'm going to send you a quote and, get back to me when you can, good luck fingers crossed, hope you love it.

And then no wonder you don't get anything back or there's a massive delay and you're sitting there going. I wonder what's happening. I wonder what they're thinking. I don't know what's going on. They've missed the window of when this was going to fit in my schedule. Now I'm, if it does land, now I'm screwed.

The, what you need to be doing though, and what we implemented, was exactly what you're talking about, Andy. It's I'm going to make sure that as soon as I send a proposal, I'm going to call them. As soon as I sent it, I know they haven't looked at it yet, but I'm going to call them and say, Hey, just checking in.

I just sent it. You won't have had time to read it. Just checking that it landed in your inbox.  And so that gives me the opportunity to be like, it.  It's setting the frame, as you say it, owning the frame in that these guys know that I'm not going to leave them alone until I get an answer. And when they say the next thing they say is, oh sweet, yeah, I'll have a look at it and get back to you.

And I say, great, I'm going to follow up with you, or when do you reckon you'll be able to get, have a look at it?  And then if it's too far down the track, I'll bring it forward and I'll say I'll just check in two days. And see if you've had a chance by then.  Or if they say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look at it on Monday.

And then I'll say, sweet, I'll give you a call Monday 10 am to follow up and see what you thought. Rather than just letting them host along, it's always being on the front foot and going, I am going to get an answer. And I'm not gonna rest until I've got one. I love that. I think the other great thing that you've reminded me of is almost the unintentional ghosting where I'm sure we've all had clients we've done a job for that is it's timely.

It's Hey, we've got our mid-yea event or something like that. And then the next year rolls on and you go, Oh, we never did that job again for this client. It's unintentional ghosting, but they've got their own thing going on, right? The easiest thing to do that gives you so many brownie points is if you go, all right, we're dealing with this new client.

This is an annual thing. Let's make a note in the diary two months ahead of this event for next year. And then send them an email, give them a call at that point and reach out and go, Hey, I just remembered, you guys have got this thing coming up, how's the plans going? Can we help out? And they're like, Oh my God, we were just thinking about that.

Yeah. It'd be great to get you guys involved. We've had so much work happen.  And it's, it, all it takes is just a little bit of thinking ahead to be like, what's going to show this person is top of mind. And you really care for their output and what they're doing. And it's that it's the. It's the painless ghosting from there, because they just move on and do the thing, but you're on a list of priority lists that could be just humongous, right?

It's up to you as the video production person to be like, this is, we've got to make videos happen for clients. So let's just systemize that followup to ensure that client base just feels really well treated as well. And they won't want to ghost you in the past because you become so integral to those operations as well. 

Of course, the other part of this is that, we don't have to think too hard about this stuff if we have a system, that's why CRMs were invented and for anyone who doesn't know what a CRM is. Customer relationship management. There's lots of different varieties. There's Trello, there's Asana, there's monday.

com. There's, what are some other systems? What are you guys using for sort of systems and project management? Basecamp, Upspot,  Notion, ClickUp. Yeah, so we're all using different tools,  but I think it's worth  talking a little bit about why we use these tools. Go high level.  Now the tool itself, as filmmakers, we often get caught up in the, what lens is that?

What camera is that? What are you editing on? And of course we all know it doesn't really matter. It's whatever works best for you and your team. But let's just maybe talk a little bit about why CRMs, why do you go to the trouble of. Documenting, inquiries, have reminders. What are some of the, if someone's listening to this, who's  never heard of a CRM or kind of knows what they are and they're not really sure how they should be using it, or if they're big enough, a lot of times people will say, Oh, I'm not big enough, just a one man band. 

Why when did you guys start using CRMs and what have been some of the benefits and what are some of the things that you had to overcome to wrap your head around being more organized in your business?  It's a good one. I we  never used one to start with and it was just all held in my email.

I didn't even use a project management software. When I first started, it was literally just emails in my head. And and what would inevitably happen is I'd have, leads come in and we'd start conversations and they wouldn't really go anywhere or they were going to go somewhere and I'd forget about them  because I got busy and, I dropped the ball on a really good conversation or I missed an opportunity.

Just because I can't keep everything in my head and I was trying to keep all of it. And and we didn't have that much going on to be honest it doesn't have to be an overwhelming flood of work before or leads and conversations before you're inevitably going to let something slip through the cracks of your brain.

I've heard it a great quote somewhere.  Share it with me Den.  Your brain is a great place to have an idea, but it's not a good place to keep it.  So the the project management software and a CRM is the place you keep the ideas and it's the place that helps you to keep a conversation going and it's just, tell you what, it's the most freeing feeling To not have a whole lot of unopened or uncompleted tasks in your brain.

That is just freedom and bliss because they stack up, right? They stack up and they're all like knocking at your head and your forehead going, Hey, I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. And you can hardly take so much of that. You go crazy.  Mental load is the big thing, right? Like it's  Caleb, you and I are dads to young kids and it's The mental load of life, home, what's happening on the weekend.

And then you go, Oh, and then there's work and business and teams and jobs and inquiry. And it's just just put that somewhere else. And then there's no question about where it's at, what's going on. But the other really good thing is that, the sooner you start using it, the easier it becomes to keep that momentum up, but also bring other people into it as you scale up and start adding team, because if it's systemized and there's a clear way you go about.

Putting in, conversations in your CRM or projects into your project management system. And then the team gets brought into that and that's the only way they know how to manage it. It just becomes second nature for everybody and really clean and clear and just the simplest way of doing things if you wonder how you ever did it beforehand.

I'd encourage anyone listening to this that's Yeah, I keep forgetting stuff or I dropped the ball on that one project. Like just start with something and it doesn't need to be the solution to everything, but start putting those leads into a CRM or into some project management software to manage what you're doing, because the sooner you start embracing it, the easier it is to continue using it and then build and scale up from that point as well.

Yeah, I think you have any insights on the. Yeah, absolutely. Like the, I think for expansion at from zero to say 10 to 15 K there was no CRM. It was all pretty ad hoc. I think I was using Google docs and just updating the docs.  But as I scaled, we scaled past 25, 30 K plus 40  K plus, and you start running Facebook ads and you're getting bunch of leads constantly coming through every day and you start scaling a team. 

In order to scale, you need a system because things can get really messy really quickly and you start losing money and where it really started hurting me is when we started getting a lot of leads and this is money spent out of my pocket and they weren't being nurtured. Some of the leads weren't being tracked and I'm just like, these are potential 30, 40, 000 deals that I'm just, they're coming in registering their interest and we're not even following up because we're caught up on other things, now we've got a full pipeline, the team can now see every single lead that comes through, each ad funnel that's come through, what stage they're at, has the appointments been in touch with them, the notes that they've had per conversation, and it's just a really neat way so that next time I jump into the CRM and I can see people have moved across the pipeline from new lead bucket to registered their interest, to have a discussion, to email links sent, I know exactly where they're at.

It saves me having a conversation with the team. Hey, who is this person? I can just click on the notes. I don't have to disturb anybody else.  And it just keeps things running efficiently. But in the early days there was no appreciation for the CRM because there were no pain points. It's like, why do I need a CRM?

Life's good. But I think once you start experiencing the pain point of volume and traffic coming through,  You very quickly realize the importance of having infrastructure in the business. So you start then, and go high level is we use go high level. That's what, 500 a month that you just purely just for that CRM itself.

But I wouldn't go without it. Like it's a, it's an absolute necessity now. Can I, just cause I love a good metaphor and analogy, I look at it, there's three stages of a shopping list, right? You can go to the supermarket and in your head, you're like, I've got to get milk, bread, eggs.  sausages and whatever and you get there and you naturally forget it or you walk around aimlessly through every single aisle to pick up what you need.

The next evolution is writing the shopping list but it's like bananas, milk, Ice cream, eggs, vegetables, and it's it's out of order, but it's there. You've got a list you can refer to and it's a great starting point. The next level to that is grouping your shopping list by the deli, the fresh fruit and vegetables, the pantry, the baby section, the pet food, and it's just bang.

I know exactly what I'm doing. It's the most efficient cut through that supermarket. That's what a CRM can do for you and systems and processes that you can still achieve your grocery shop, but you can do it such a smarter way and anybody can do it. If you've got your fancy shopping list, it's my analogy for the week.

That's so genius. I love that. And I think, this is actually, we're running out of time here for this episode, unfortunately, but I reckon there's a whole episode that we could just deep dive into how everyone's using this in even more detail, because it is something, there's something in, in marketing called status quo bias.

And status quo bias is a very fancy expression for people staying where they are and doing what they've always done because it ain't broke, why fix it? Mentality. And I think what I want to leave us with here on this episode is we're here because we want to promote excellence in business, running video companies, because I believe, and I firmly believe that everyone running a video production company should be earning as much as a doctor, specialist, a lawyer, because I think that what we do is of immense value to the audience, to the community. 

So any closing thoughts on this before we wrap this episode up? Cause I think we should really come back and do a deeper dive on CRMs. My only closing thought was I need a CRM for the supermarket because the amount of times I have spent hours, actually, no, I take that back. My wife is now responsible for the supermarket.

She doesn't even go, she orders online. So no worries, problem solved.  Any closing thoughts from you, Matt?  Yeah, when I first reached out to you, Den, the biggest thing I kept hearing years and years ago was systemize your business systemize. And now like years later with a completely new team, those systems have gotten us so far and just simplified everything we do.

I can leave the business for a week and go on holiday or go interstate on a trip or something like that and know that everything's going to run the same way as it would if I was there Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also I can check in and just see where stuff's at without kind of, Hey, where's this at? Where's that at?

It's all systemized and built into that to just take that mental load off the running of the business. So like I am absolutely in support of just starting and then building as you can for sure.  I think final thoughts gluing the gray area  version and the CRM systems. I think the.  The final thought I have is, the gray area is an area where you don't want anybody in.

And when you've got a lot of people on that systems is going to be a best friend to help manage that that process. And if you're serious about growing your business systems is an absolute must. It's an absolute must. Don't be afraid to dive into CRM world and feel free to test and break things.

It's okay. I think I've tested like eight CRMs before I stuck with one.  So that was the most expensive one we ended up settling for. That's what we needed. So yeah,  good as gold. 

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